Harry Shaw is a screenwriter and filmmaker, currently working on his debut narrative feature film which is in development with Article1 Productions.

Harry began life in the world of documentary for Channel 4 where he directed many non-fiction films.

His films focus on thought-provoking, perspective-shifting stories which aim to have a positive social impact.

Exemplifying this, his most recent film is a documentary about dementia called 'DON'T THINK TWICE', with music by Bob Dylan. As is his upcoming short, 'SUGAR BABIES' - a hypnotic queer drama - which is due for release this year and has been nominated for awards including best film and best director.

Harry’s activism extends to affecting change at the heart of government where he’s attracted millions of people with his campaign to ban conversion therapy.

Learn more about Louise's Art After Dark workshops

Topics we talk about in the show:

Creation 1:

Withnail & I FIlm Trailer

 "Sugar Babies" Film Trailer, Harry Shaw

Creation 2:

Don't Think Twice, Harry Shaw

Creation 3: 

We Need to Kill Your Father, Harry Shaw (currently in production)

Sensitive: The Power of a Thoughtful Mind in an Overwhelming World by Jenn Granneman & Andre Sólo

Transcript

Harry Shaw

[00:00:00] What better way to understand yourself and the people around you than write a script about it in filmmaking, at least your first script is gonna be so bad. It's gonna be so, so dramatically bad and getting over that's really hard But one of the crucial lessons to learn, especially as a filmmaker or as an artist, is that what you love is not always what you should be making.

Louise: Hello, and I'm delighted to welcome you to another episode of my podcast, art After Dark, where we explore the transformative impact of the arts on mind, body, and soul. I'm your host, Louise Emily, an artist on a mission to shed light on the power. Of human creativity.

This week's Artistic Explorer is Harry Shaw. Harry is a filmmaker, beginning life in the world of documentary for Channel 4, where he directed many non fiction films. Harry's films focus on thought provoking, perspective shifting stories, which aim to have a positive social impact.

Exemplifying this, his most recent film is a [00:01:00] documentary about dementia called Don't Think Twice with music by Bob Dylan, as is his upcoming short, Sugar Babies, a hypnotic queer drama, which is due for release this year and has been nominated for awards including Best Film and Best Director.

Harry's activism extends to affecting change at the heart of government, where he's attracted millions of people with his campaign to ban conversion therapy. He's currently working on his debut narrative feature film, which is in development with Article One Productions. As you can see, darkness has fallen.

It's time to welcome Harry to the forest. Hello! Welcome, Harry!

Hello. Thank you very much. Hello. Good to see you. Are you ready With your bag snack and drink?

I'm ready. There really is only one choice in my bag, and that is my rucksack I think it's fi than Kin.

Kin or something like that you will have seen these bags. They're the green or blue or yellow bags with the little fox logo on the back of 'em. Oh, yes. Okay. I recognize. And, , , I've had this bag for years and years and years and it's, been everywhere with me from [00:02:00] Side of stage in an arena with thousands of people to a massive big blockbuster film set to my mom's garage.

I mean, I've tried to replace it so many times,. And my mom actually bless her, has even like, tried to get me new ruck sack for Christmas because it's so mucky and disgusting. And each time I've just asked her to take it back 'cause it's just not quite the same.

So I'm gonna bring my, lovely little green ruck sack, my scrappy little ruck sack, , to bring all my stuff in. Brilliant. And the thing about me is I will be having a Diet Coke for people who know the TikTok reference, there's this amazing lady who talks about Diet Coke a lot.

, and that's her saying, and I can't not go through the day without a Diet Coke or three, I have them stocked up in my fridge. There are some weeks where I'm end-to-end busy, crazy, and the only thing in my fridge is 20, 250 mil Slim Diet Coke cans. Sad insight into my life.

But Diet Coke, I cannot live without it. , and, , for my snack, I'm hoping that this, is a kind of magical forest in the sense that we can create some, , , food magic. [00:03:00] Of course. One of my favorite, favorite snacks ever is bitter ballin. Have you ever had a bitter ballin before?

If you know what they're No. Tell me more. It's so. I, I'm half Dutch. And, , , I mean, Dutch food is, notoriously boring and gray and fried.

the most famous of those foods is bitter ballin, they're kind of like croquettes basically.

They're , like brown fried breaded balls that have this honestly, quite disgusting brown gray. I have had them, yes. Like, like soft filling and it's usually, , you know, meat of some kind. Yes. You chicken or pork, whatever. , and you dip it in mustard. , I dunno if I'd put them in my bag or maybe I'll just have a little kind of bucket of bitter ball with a mustard dispenser and it'll just be infinite and I can go through the forest with that and, and just make my way through.

You can have , infinite diet Coke and infinite bitter bowling. I wouldn't get behind infinite Diet Coke. I feel like bol I could always have more of, but Diet Coke, I can only have two or three a day and that is part of the allure of the Diet. Coke is the finite nature of it.

So I'd like to have an infinite [00:04:00] BOL and limited Diet Coke for my own health and safety. Good. Okay. So I might be able to share one of your bitter ball in then. Oh, yes. Yeah. You should be able to have one of those, but hands off the Diet Coke. Brilliant. Well, it sounds like you are ready to go.

,yes. So I would love you to light the way into the forest with your first creation. Yes. So first creation is not something that I made. It's a film called With Nail, and I have you seen With Nail and I, yes, it's, , a , fantastic movie. When I was a kid, I had a pretty difficult childhood

and, , at my dad's house, the only things that were there were a full box set of, of Black Adder , a copy of Kill Bill,, and this copy of With Nail and I, which I definitely could not possibly have understood at the time, it's quite of, interesting comedy film about these two out of work actors who are so poor that they rub deep heat on their arms to keep warm.

, and they have a kitchen that's so [00:05:00] messy that there's things living in it. It kind of verges on being a Dick Kenzie and story it was set in the seventies. , and these two very eccentric, , out of work actors.

One played by Fantastic Richard E. Grant, , they go out to the country in search of escape from , the urban dwelling. And , , it's hilarious. One of the most quotable movies. I've ever experienced in my life. It's hilarious. Yeah. , it made me laugh even before I knew why it would make me laugh

at the time it was really not liked, it didn't do very well at all at the box office. It was a massive flop. , but it, , had this cult-like following that found it eventually in the nineties and noughties. And, , my dad was one of those people, you know, who found it and loved it.

And, , I just adore that film. I, I rewatch it kind of a few times a year. And recently a friend of mine, , shed some amazing light on it, which I just think, I can't believe that. I've never noticed it really. , but he said, well, you know, that with nail's in love with I, , and I was like, what?

And he's like, yeah, you know, he's in love with him. That's why he kind of subjects his friend [00:06:00] to. Essentially what is sexual assault? 'cause he kind of brings him to his uncle's farm and he knows that his uncle is a bit frisky and I think he wanted to like test whether his friend would succumb to his uncle's , advances to see if he was gay in order to kind of fall in love with him.

And it's so crazy how I think maybe because I've watched it as a kid and because I wasn't aware of , you know, that kind of love being a thing, it's a film that basically has gained new meaning for me recently and , yeah. It consistently surprises me as, as a movie that is about so much more than two drunks, you know?

Yeah. , even though that's what it is on the surface of things, so. Yeah. And what is it that you get from it? Is it nostalgia? Do you feel safe within it? What, what is it? Yeah, I think it's definitely a feeling of safety and I mean, we all rewatch films and TV series out of comfort.

There's a lot of people in my life especially who like will rewatch the office a million times. They'll always stick it on. Or for some people it's Grey's Anatomy, , or bridesmaids or , in my case with Nel and I, it's like a thing where if you know the outcome, even if the [00:07:00] outcome isn't particularly happy, you are in a state of comfort and you can kind of see comfort from it.

And I think as a film it's just, , it deals with these. Eccentric thespian types. And although I can't claim to be a kind of fully eccentric person, I do identify with people who, , are, , in the business of making the mundane more dramatic. You know, I think that's quite entertaining and pleasing and, , and I find 'em fairly detestable as people.

So I, I always kind of enjoy stuff where I don't, don't like them, you know? And I like it when we're not meant to, like a character. I find that quite fun. Yeah. , and did that inspire you to go into filmmaking yourself? I think interestingly, no, not really. And, and weirdly, weirdly, there's not really a film I've ever watched until I'd become a filmmaker.

There's not really a film I'd ever watched that I thought I'd love to make that. Mm-hmm. Because I gen genuinely, genuinely, genuinely. Until, really I had my first professional opportunity to make a broadcast television program. , I really genuinely didn't believe it was possible or plausible for [00:08:00] someone like me to be a film director.

You know, people said that was a career and it just felt so distanced that I didn't even register as plausible on my radar, I left school quite early at 16 and I just went and tried to be a photographer and I worked as a photo assistant for years and years and, and I thought that was possible.

And I started doing photos on, on film sets, and then I kind of started to realize, oh, actually , People do work in this industry. Yeah. It's an actual job that you can kind of apply to. And I dunno what that was about me that just blocked that as a possibility.

, but I luckily, I found out early enough to really give it a go , , and so started making documentaries that are , much easier to get off the ground than, than narrative films anyway. So. And what is it that propelled you from , that not even thinking it was possible for you into, that first , big break or?

Steps. I think it's , people who give you permission in a way. And you, you shouldn't need it, but you, when you lack confidence, you, do need it in, in some ways. Mm-hmm. I was shooting a lot of , photojournalism pieces , in the music world specifically.

So I was working for publications like [00:09:00] Vice and their music publication, noisy. , and , covering a lot of festivals and spending lots of times with bands and, you know, following 'em about as a kind of tage photojournalist. , and I was also out as, , gay. And off the back of that, a production company said, Hey, look, channel four are looking for, young gay presenters to make, , films and make documentaries and, , would you be up for pitching for one?

And I was, I think 18 at the time and, , I was like, sure. And it happened and, and we made this kind of this channel four doc about grinder and gay sex apps and stuff and, you know, and it was, it was fine.

It was commissioned by the education department, so it was hardly as gritty as I wanted it to be, but that's okay. , and,, I realized, oh, well maybe actually if I put some effort into this, I could do this, but also make it how I wanna make it, , and not just be serving the channel or serving the production companies kind of version of me.

That, that's quite a big thing to do though. Not everybody who's asked you fancy going and doing this film would be like, yeah, all right, then I'll go and do it. I think , [00:10:00] most people would not say yes to that. Yeah. But I, , you know, attention seeking, you know, , pastor at the time I had no idea what I wanted to do, and I didn't really for a while after that either, , didn't have a clear direction and I felt very envious of my friends who were at university or friends who were in jobs already, because they all seemed like, you know, and became apparent, this isn't true.

But they all seemed like at the time, they all had it sorted out. They all had a career directory. They were gonna become lawyers or, , accountants, and they were gonna have a big high flying job and they were gonna get mortgage, whatever. I think I might be the only one of my group that has a mortgage now, you know?

And like, , so, so I think at the time I was like, fuck, I don't have anything. I don't have any direction at all. And so I was looking for anything that I saw to be vaguely cooled. I was just like, well, okay, if I can't do something that's gonna make me loads of money or have a career trajectory that. It means I reach partner by 40, then, I'll just stick to doing the fun stuff, you know?

Yeah. I'll kind of bail out and just do everything that I [00:11:00] can do fun things. It kind of, it worked out and, that first Channel four doc did very well. We won like an r t s award for it, and Channel four wanted more stuff. And so it's very fortunate that it became at just the right time that it was, relevant , and it, was popular, but then really it, took another person.

It took my friend Bertie to tell me , so when are you gonna do like a narrative film? When are you gonna do a scripted film? And I was like, no, I can't. Just be a screenwriter. I can't just be a film director. And he was like, why? Like, why the fuck not the script software's free.

You can write a script and no one's stopping you from doing that. And I was like, oh yeah, maybe. I just didn't think I was good enough. And so when someone says that you can, and you are good enough to do this or at Leasts good enough to learn, then , yeah, I just found it.

Okay, well I'll give that a go. And that was six years ago now. Yeah. 'cause we have so, so many narratives and limiting beliefs that hold us back. They're there and you don't even necessarily, if you don't wrestle them to the ground , and interrogate them you don't necessarily move forward.[00:12:00] Yeah. I don't love the advice. I, I'm not actually one of those people who goes, anyone can do anything. I don't actually believe that at all.

Right. , is not very inspiring in general, but what I think it does is helps people to focus on, , not necessarily giving up on what they want, but giving yourself the credit. You know, actually I am good at this. Yeah. And I should be doing this. But one of the crucial lessons to learn, especially as a filmmaker or as an artist, and the hardest lesson, I think to learn is that what you love and what you love watching or consuming or reading whenever is not always what you should be making.

You know? Yeah. I adore, I absolutely adore. Super stylized, quirky, weird, surreal films. I love them so much, but I'm not made for that. You know, I do not have the attention to detail or the referencing ability or the patience, quite frankly. All the just kind of innate vision [00:13:00] that certain directors have in achieving that.

Actually my brain works. I'm much better at writing stuff that is realism adjacent or stuff that feels grounded quite slow, you know? Yeah. , It's really important to kind of be aware of yourself as an artist so that you don't spend years trying to do something you were never meant to be doing that know, that's so true.

Yeah. I really recognize that in my own, I used to, I spent ages doing little paintings, like little tiny ones and that was partly a confidence thing. 'cause I was like, oh, I can't go big li another limiting belief. Can't have a big canvas. Well you can, you can just buy one and paint on it. Mm-hmm., and I was like, oh God, this is really fiddly.

But I really like that style. And then it's just not me. I like big strokes that are more prominent. I think sometimes when we look at things, other artists of, of whatever sort, , are expressing something within us that we feel that we want it to be expressed.

But actually our own main voice [00:14:00] is slightly what is our own, isn't it? It's different to that. Yeah. And also they're already doing it. Yeah. So, so, you know, and it's not that you have to do something unique. No one, no one can really do that. But I do think that , I'm so impressionable.

Yeah. I, I'll watch a film, especially if it's someone who has a really distinctive voice. Like there's a filmmaker called Ruben Osland Made Triangle of Sadness. That was a very big film last year. Yeah. , and lots of other , great movies like, , force Majeure and , with the Square and his. Tone of voice is so recognizable, it's so conversational and erratic , and just very kind of like clunky and interesting.

And I can't help but write like him for the next five days after watching a movie he's done. You know? So I have to be really careful about what I watch and what I'm doing at the time, because otherwise I will just end up trying to mimic all of my heroes rather than be myself as a writer.

Yeah. And really kind of have my own, have my own voice. Yeah. And, . I've recently read a book called Sensitive, , and it talks about that, , sort of impressionability, , and [00:15:00] how 'cause you're so sort of absorbent, it basically means that you do take it in and you are more affected by things.

That's probably a trait of, that level of artistic sensibility sensitivity. Yeah. , do you think though that there is a role for, people mimicking their artists as they're learning before they can then take flight and have, find their own voice?

Did you find yourself doing that? Yeah, definitely. And it really just happens by doing, you find your voice by just doing whatever you are trying to do. There's that, , very famous monologue by Ira Glass called, , the Gap. Have you ever heard that before? Yes. Yes I have.

Yeah. I mean, , it should be just, I don't know, played in every school Yeah. Up and down the country, because that is what, that's what you've got to contend with as a, as an artist, is this gap between what you like and what you are, you are personally able, , to achieve.

And, , in filmmaking, at least your first script is gonna be so bad. It's gonna be so, so dramatically bad. And as a director, really, your first 10 scripts are gonna be dog shit.

And getting [00:16:00] over that's really hard because any, kind of right or worth their weight knows that it's gonna be rubbish. So having the gumption to do it anyway is really, really draining because you think, well, this is never gonna get made, or this is never gonna happen.

Yeah. But it's really important that you get through it because if you don't, , you, you literally will never have a chance in hell, you know? Yeah. Really of really making it as a professional, but it takes a lot of courage to make things anyway, even though you know you're gonna fail.

And I've always found it quite hard, even since I was a little kid. I didn't like doing stuff until I knew I was gonna do it quite well. . So getting over that has been really difficult. , but you know, I've probably only written it will be less than 20 long form scripts in my life. There's not very many really, you know?

Yeah. And I'm just about ready to make my first feature film. , but really, I, I probably probably should have written more than that. You know, I've read a lot more than that. I've read a lot more. But, you know, it's the people who come to me with a short film script and ask me for feedback on it.

And it's, the first script they've ever written. And I'm like, well, maybe you should just write five more [00:17:00] first and then come back to me. 'cause I think you'll probably learn more by writing five scripts. Then I can possibly teach you in the notes I'll give you for this, film. , exactly.

But it's scary. It takes ages and it's boring and you just wanna be making movies. So I get why people do that, but the writing does get so much better, doesn't it? And, and I do think that, yeah, like you said, it's scary. , there's a fear. , it's exposing because you've basically put everything into it and you are going, right, well this is me now.

It, it's different to having an office job where you are representing the company or you're representing a brand. This is your inner voice that you are then exposing to people. , it doesn't get more vulnerable than that. It's just you, you know, standing there. Scary. Yeah, exactly.

So when they give that feedback, it is all you, , yeah. Which is horrifying, you know, I think, , we are ready to move on now to your second creation. So my second creation is one of mine. , and that is a film, called Don't Think Twice, and Don't [00:18:00] Think Twice is a documentary.

It's a film that was pretty personal to me. It's all about this Man called John and his wife Geraldine. And they are, , dealing with the fact that John has had this very rare form of dementia called Semantic Dementia for about 10 years. And he's kind of really deteriorating quite quickly and, experiencing quite a lot of mental health issues.

​

This other John, this little John comes into their home and helps the patient [00:19:00] by, , playing music because although he's losing a lot of his semantic understanding and his ability to vocalize, , And, think, , he can still miraculously play guitar and sing perfectly well.

, so they're trying to help him find joy in that,

 

and what is it that drew your attention to, that subject matter?

What was it that made you want to tell that story? It just felt compelling from a personal perspective.

My, , , grandma, my er, which was how we say it in Dutch, , had recently passed away from dementia. , my grandpa was showing very early signs of it. So it was a very emotional subject for me. And when I heard about the story,

I found it very interesting that, this was a, topic that's been talked about a lot before but like this felt like a particularly interesting story from a music perspective

it's interesting 'cause I love the film and the way we did it, I feel , [00:20:00] was quite fun.

It was a very unusual way to make a documentary. There was no kind of fly on the wall moments or anything like that, or there's a couple, but very, very, very few. , We filmed a tree over the course of like six months as it lost its leaves. And we did these huge , quite high-end, , dolly camera movements and , stuff that you don't get to do in documentaries usually.

So yeah, it was a nice way to do that and it kind of illuminate that. ,

and, what did the film teach you about music and the importance of music? ,making. I know from my own experience with dementia, with my armor, that music's very, very important. It, it occupies a different part of the brain.

, John, in this film, the music, it just kind of occupies a different part of him. It was amazing to see someone who could barely put a sentence together, boom out, uh, legendary Bob Dylan track , and sing it so well.

Yeah

you'd think that all of these elements of the film come together to make it a really successful documentary. For me, it was a moving film. It's well made, Bob Dylan's name is all over it.

, you'd think that would do really well. I think it's a really important lesson to learn, for any filmmakers listening that it didn't do [00:21:00] well, , people really liked it. A lot of people will say, I think it's the, their favorite thing that I've done. It's important to know that as an artist, you are not creating in a vacuum.

It's not good enough to make a good film. Really, you know? Yeah. It's not good enough to have a really hard hitting story.

It's gotta have a kind of relevance and a poignance and a why now element to it. There's a documentary maybe they're still trying to make it, and it's all about this seal that turns up to, Billingsgate market, , in the harbor. This seal pops up and they wanna redevelop this harbor and they wanna get rid of the market and redevelop it all. Yeah. And they can't because this protected seal keeps on turning up every week.

Right. And so there's this battle going on between conservationists and these property developers that is the kind of idea that we'll do really well. Yeah. Even though it's not about someone literally dying, you know? Yeah. Or, , super personal to one person.

It takes this type of, almost like this delight. Even if it's a sad [00:22:00] story or surprise element that no one's seen before for a film to really make waves in the industry.

I'm sure there will be people watching who are trying to get into it. My, son's just started making his own films of his Star Wars character, so I'll be playing in this episode.

You've got to stop him. You've gotta stop him now. Nip that in the bud. Nip that in the bud. He should be a lawyer or something else. But no, I think something that captures people's imagination like the seal one, I could imagine how that would capture people's imagination.

But this is just all part of the journey, isn't it? , I guess is a good opportunity to ask you, what does success look like to you?

I think it would be to feel like , I'm consistently getting a better handle on what it is to make movies and that I feel more secure every year that I keep on doing it. And like I've learned more as well. But really the biggest, I think, form of success is that I am, , consistently making better work than I was before. And, I feel like more of a [00:23:00] master of my trade. Yeah. I feel so green right now. I feel so, , young , in terms of kind of screenwriting and directing

, but also have a sense that, I'm supporting people who are on that same journey and supporting people coming, up through or after me as well. I think that's a really big part of my practice as an artist is to try and look after the people around me and connect everyone together and try and make yeah, this kind of like legal ecosystem.

I don't really have any dreams of Hollywoods. No notoriety, but if I could sit where I'm sitting right now and write scripts for the rest of my life, that would be quite dreamy.

And for people to like them. Yeah. You know, for me to send a script to someone and go no notes, no notes ever, , ever, that's the dream, you know? But I think, just having a sense of, , security in that would be a miracle, quite frankly. Yeah. I think that's a really interesting answer.

'cause , it points to the fact that it is the process and the, craft that you are focusing on rather than necessarily the outcome of any given film. You're not [00:24:00] saying it's an award or anything like that, it's just to keep feeding , the creativity essentially. Love a baf or two, don't get me wrong.

You can gimme one of those anytime you want. We're just putting that out there, everybody. Yeah. If, if you ever anyone's on the voting committee. , but I think when you receive as many rejections as I have, or you and any writer does, by the way, this is so normal to receive just dozens and dozens of projections every year from various schemes or production companies or , funding people, you would think that then the winning of it, would become more important, but actually becomes less important because you realize that the people who win all this stuff are such a small percentage of successful filmmakers .

So I think it's such a small part of it, and , as you get rejected more and more, you realize but I'm still making stuff, right? I'm being rejected left, right, and center, but I'm still making stuff and I'm still really proud of it. So actually, if I'm still doing what I wanna do and not winning, then it becomes much less important

Yeah, now it's just more about. , having opportunities to share my writing and [00:25:00] talk about it with people. And, , my favorite thing, like on Tuesday next week, having a little meeting with, , someone from the B F I about a film I'm working on and we're just gonna talk about the film for a couple of hours and like, it's like fucking drew me.

Yeah. Just to like, it's this every artist dream is just go and talk about your own work. Yeah. But have someone who really caress, who really knows what they're talking about. , not only give your work at the time of day, but then actually give their attention enough to come and discuss it with you and talk to you about how it can be made better. So anything that involves that is successful, I think for sure. Yeah. And, and if you couldn't create anymore, if you weren't allowed to do it.

Yeah. What do you think you would lose from your life? 'cause you are obviously compelled to do it. If you weren't allowed to write or make films, how would you feel about that? I'd feel very sad if we very angry. I'd probably launch a human rights campaign. I'm sure you've heard I have I have history, but I think, there's some writers who say, oh, I would die if I couldn't write, or, I could only do this, [00:26:00] so there's only one option for me.

I have to make films. It's like, well, they usually say that when they're in their fifties and have an Oscar and don't Yeah. Have to do anything else, you know? I don't buy that so much. I think if, I wasn't able to write, I would find meaning in other things. I have a little mini art collection of my, that's what I do with my kind of spare money whenever I get a moment.

It's, it's typical gay person without a family, isn't it? I spend my money on art. you're talking to the wrong person. I have no issue with that. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I actually learned how to do bespoke picture framing ,and so I worked as a framer .

For a while , and loved that and, and so if I couldn't write, I'd just go do something like that. I'd go do something with my hands . I'd love to be a writer for the rest of my life, but I think, I've always been someone who, searches for new, cool things to be doing with my life , and focuses in on, stuff that I'm just quite good at.

And just try and be the best I can at that thing. Yeah. It's still something you're doing with your hands. It's just you're, it's, what you're not saying to me is, I'm gonna go and be an accountant or a lawyer or No, I'm gonna go and do something like that.

[00:27:00] It's still something creative, so yeah. What is it about creating things that you feel compelled to do? What does it give you? I think, it gives me a sense of control. I think that's probably partly it. I was always a bit of a self-starter. I was always a bit of someone who just didn't really want to do.

The normal kind of thing that was happening at school or whatever. I didn't, I mean, maybe it's like, it could also just be a slightly of arrogance where it's like, really, do I have to kind of like fit the mold in this way? That's why I left school so early, I think. 'cause I thought I was better than that school and like, I thought I could do cool shit with my life.

There's certain level of audacity that's required to pursue that kind of life. But I think past that and once I grew out of that need to be different, , I realized that where the real drive for doing something creative came from is that the buck stopped with me

there's been a lot of times in my life where I had no control over what was happening to me, and I felt very stuck and [00:28:00] intimidated and scared. And when you are the boss and when what you're working on is your entity and you have control over it, it feels very liberating. There isn't anyone telling you what you can and can't do to a certain degree,

but also, you are responsible for your own success and your own failure. And so actually I don't have to trust anyone. I don't have to rely on anyone. , what I make is down to me. And so. I find myself to be a lot safer pair of hands than anyone else. Yeah. And that might say a lot about me, but, but that's okay.

You know? That's fine. No, I, recognize that I felt a sense of liberation after moving out of a full-time job. , and it is that whole feeling, as you say , of liberation freedom on my own boss, which is also, oh god. Yeah. It's scary as well. It's scary as well, and it does take a certain type of person to go all in on it, I think.

but what do you think, even for people who aren't doing it full time, [00:29:00] that element of creativity, do you think that it is something , that people can incorporate into their lives in their spare time? And, what would you think that they would get outta it? I think, I think absolutely yes, you should be able to fit creative moments into your life. , and the reality is, is that there are some people who have more responsibilities than I do, so they can't leave everything behind and just write scripts all day and hope that something happens.

'cause that takes a long time. , but, creativity is all, about mindset, really. And, I think the, people who are most free and happy are the ones who realize , they're not bound to a specific discipline or medium to exercise their creativity. Yeah. , and actually the skill of writing and the skill of talking and conveying a message and storytelling, , can be used in any job, in any industry, in any part of the world, you know?

If nothing else, just to try and have fun in your own life , is a creative enterprise. I think especially when you are working in a place that doesn't necessarily reward creativity. trying to [00:30:00] make it an interesting place to work regardless is, is quite a fun thing to do.

It's definitely what I've found myself playing a few games in the various office jobs that I've had, but also with the internet and with social media and all that stuff it makes all of this so much easier.

It makes connecting with people who are interested in what you are interested in so much easier. Whether that's crocheting, teapop, cozies or writing short stories or animating comic strips or cutting together super cuts of your best bits from peep show. It's all there, right?

You can do it instantly and also more plausible than ever for side hustles to become something that you can do full-time because, , your access to audiences and people who can buy your work and, invest in you as an artist , it's so much more now.

there was something about a thousand True fans. You heard that from? Oh yeah. Yeah. You have a thousand truth fans, you can do anything. And I think there's a certain amount of truth to that for sure, where, , you just need to find a small community. yeah. No, absolutely. You've got another film haven't you, coming out this year,

which is called Sugar Babies.[00:31:00] . Yes. Sugar Babies. Yeah.

Could you tell us a little bit about why you decided to make that film and what's behind it?

So Sugar Babies is a short film that, I made last year and it's been doing the festival circuit. It's a film about two queer kids who live in London. they are boyfriends. And , one of them is this risk addicted, bit nonchalant, a bit cool, too cool for school kid who is, , approaching men on Grindr.

saying that he is 19, which he kind of is. and then just as he's about to have sex with them, he blackmails 'em for money, claiming to be 15. And that , he's gonna tell their family that he's having sex with a 15 year old if they don't give him three quid.

So it's, , quite an intense thing. And the second, Boy is called Jamie. And Jamie is just this sweet, kind of innocent boy who is hopelessly in love with the dangerous [00:32:00] Kieran, , and follows him into the fire.

, it all goes terribly, terribly wrong. Sugar baby is usually in arrangement where an older man will give a younger boy or girl, some money in exchange for kind of like nudes or com company, sometimes sex.

But the story is really about love. The story is kind of really about relationships and, particular relationships I've had with either friends or lovers where I've think, they've been very cool, they've been very hot, they've been very mysterious.

, and it's always just very hard to know deep down whether they really love me or not, or whether I'm just quite useful. and so little Jamie who's the kind of lovey-dovey one who's just following along. , he's just trying to work out whether Kieran's for real or whether actually it's just quite useful to have a second body on the con with him, you know?

so it's a very short film, but it packs a lot into it, and it's all really about love . Why did you feel the need to make that film? do you feel like there's an adequate level of representation of, gay men in film?

Yeah. I mean, I automatically make gay films, so, it is about representation [00:33:00] and it isn't in the sense that it is because there are gay people in it, but it's not in the sense that I don't, do it for that reason. I really made this film because I've been in friendships, especially like close friendships at school and stuff where there were people in my life that I was totally enamored by, and I just thought they were the coolest people in the world, and I just wanted to be with them the whole time.

Not like sexually, but just wanted to be around the whole time. And actually, they were pieces of shit, and they treat me like rubbish. And , I, just was fascinated by that dynamic. And I think everyone's been in a situation where they just want more from someone who can't give it to them.

Yeah. so that was where the film came from.

And I also had ambitions to write a thriller. I was like, I want to write something cool and crazy and hypnotic and weird, because I'd always written quite slow. Dramas British realism. Moody and stuff.

And I thought, oh, I'm gonna write a really cool dynamic, exciting thriller where someone dies and stuff like that. And someone does die in Sugar Babies, you'll have to watch to find [00:34:00] out who. but , it was so funny how it ended up being a slow British realism drama in the end. And it's so funny how on set when I was directing it, I just injected like a lot of silence into the scenes, a lot of breaks in the dialogue. It was so funny how as a writer had gone, I'm gonna make the next born ultimatum. You know, porn supremacy. Wow. And in fact, actually it's like a kind of more stylized Ken Loach little queer film.

It's a good thing to know now as a writer, that I don't personally feel capable of doing these high tained films, so I'm not gonna try and write them again.

but it's all helpful 'cause now I know more about myself as a filmmaker and I know not to try and write something, you know, with a car chase and stuff. How common is it to write the script and then direct it?

Because you do get a lot of control, which is something that you like. So do you intend to carry on doing that? Interestingly, it's more common now than it used to be. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of writer directors, but there's also a lot of pushback against it now in the industry.

And I think it's [00:35:00] quite good. writer, directors or some people call them authors, they can be people like, Quinta Tarantino, yeah. or Wess Anderson. , Sophia Koler , writes a lot of her own scripts. Andrea Arnold, they're great filmmakers that are writers and directors, and they're often people who are bringing really new and interesting perspectives on things.

Hmm. But there's a reason why there's two people involved in that process a lot of the time. And as a writer, I'm very interested in directing the stuff that I feel personally compelled to direct. But I really do class myself as a writer first and foremost. And so be very happy to write a script and for a, , amazing director to take it on and, do what they want to it and, change it and develop it and make it something better.

, and I think that that division of labor. Has been so key in some of the greatest films ever made. that I think it's important to keep that division alive really, and do you send your script to certain people

To read the script and then feed back to you, what's your process for narrowing it down and making it better? My best friend in the world, [00:36:00] Christina, she usually gets a phone call from me and, , I say, I've gone on here for a film.

And she's like, okay, what is it? And, and I'll tell her the elevator pitch and I can very quickly gauge whether she likes it or not.

She sometimes will go, oh yeah, I really like that. , you kind of know the reaction instantly, I usually have five or six ideas floating around in my head at any given time, like TV series and films

so I'll just bring them up in conversation and, and talk about them and it becomes very clear in the space of a week or two, which ones have legs and which ones people are , drawn to or attracted to. And then I'll think about, where the story could end usually is where I begin, and who I want to, , be central to the story and what journey they're gonna go on.

And I have lots of people in my life that I'll, trust with that, but it's a, it is a tense to like, expect someone to read all of that, think it through, and then kind of have enough time to give you feedback on it.

But really my mom also reads a lot of my stuff. She's not in any way, , creatively minded at all and has no idea how films work, but she's always a [00:37:00] really good gauge , she's always mentions the things that no one else would mention, and the idea is that no one else would find confusing.

She finds confusing. , but that's good because, usually she comes up with the stuff that makes the film, tick a lot quicker, , because everyone else is trying to be clever with their notes. Whereas mum was just like, why, why is that car red? Yeah,

wouldn't it be dirty or wouldn't it be this, just little ideas that that can spark off new plot points and new ideas yeah. No, I, I totally get that. I was thinking as, you know, the format for the podcast has been something that you, thank goodness, , gave me advice on.

Mm-hmm. And, , Yeah. That's just one example of people who I , I spoke to about the different options and, I think it is important to have that breadth of, of different types of people feeding back.

Final question on sugar babies. , are you happy with the way that it's been received?

I'm super happy.

I, I'm basically currently developing it into a TV series.

There's a company that's very interested in it.

But I don't like any of my movies. Yet, you know, I hope that one day that will change. I don't, I don't want that just to [00:38:00] be a thing for the rest of my life, but I still see myself as someone who's finding their voice.

, it depends on the day though. I can watch a film back that I've made and go, oh my God, I need to remove it from the internet.

That is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. And then I'll watch it five months later. Like, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's all right. You know? Well, isn't that's, that's the growth though, isn't it? Isn't that a sign of growth? If you looked back on your first film and you were just like, yeah, totally nailed it, then you'd just be like, hang on a minute, what's the point in me doing what I'm doing now?

So I mean, I'm gonna hopely look back on these podcast interviews and go, oh my God, that was awful. Not on busy. No, I think you, I don't think you, you're the best interview I've ever experienced in my entire life, and I don't think it's possible to improve. So I, and quite frankly, I'm the best interviewee, so You're welcome.

I think after this one you should just quit. I know. I've reached my peak now, clearly. Yeah, that's, that's the message. This with this high budget background. I've really spoiled. You haven't I? Really. Big time. [00:39:00] So, , I, I think that's brilliant way you've got to with Sugar Babies is fantastic.

The fact that it's, received, , nominations, but also that it might be taken further and that there's interest that so commercially there's, there's real potential there. So well done on that. So I look forward to seeing how it grows , right. So I think we're ready to go on to creation three. Yes. So creation three is a creation that hasn't been made yet, so that's kind of fun, isn't it,

it's my first narrative feature film. , and that was what we call optioned. That's this like a film boy term for someone buys your idea? Basically. , it was options, two, three years ago. And since then we've been developing it, I've been writing the script.

And we've got a good amount of funding , and we've cast an, an incredible cast of brilliant British national treasures, and it was all ready to go. so we'll be shooting that next year.

And that film is called, , we Need To Kill Your Father. , so that's, my third creation. Yes. Fantastic. That [00:40:00] sounds so exciting. So we need to create Father is a film about a mother and son, , who are plotting to kill the dad.

I wanted to make a film and do it through a interesting lens of trying to, look at these amateur killers, , attempting to take the law into their own hands basically.

We have an opportunity now 'cause of the strikes to develop it further before we make it. I do wanna make some fairly significant changes. Because it's a personal story and because it involves talking about the darkest parts of my life, , do I wanna make that funny is my main question at the moment and the moment.

It's a funny script something I'm really wrestling with right now as a writer who's making something personal, is, does it lack respect or integrity to laugh at something that's so, , difficult , and challenging.

And I think a lot of people, Fairly or not, , applaud people who can laugh at their, , past experiences. And I, I think that's fine. There's plenty of stuff that I watch that I find really funny that's really dark and like great. But, as someone [00:41:00] who's huge fan of quote unquote serious movies, I'm wondering whether actually I should go further down that route and respect my little childhood self a bit more than trying to cut through all the tension with, humor.

A key, a kid. Is that, how you dealt with your issue? Did you deal with it with humor? Maybe not at the time, at the time I was a quite troubled child. But I think nowadays definitely, I think I'm a fairly fun person.

I try and make light of things. I try and make people laugh and I love that. I do. I really do. They say kind of horror and comedy at the closest genres.

They have the closest bond because you're doing the same thing with both, where you are building up all of this tension. , and in a horror you are cutting through the tension with a jump scare or, a moment of safety. And with a comedy, you're cutting through the tension with, humor and making people laugh.

Through tone and the way you build tension, the way you cut through it, you can make someone laugh a lot by saying something that isn't very technically very funny.

Yeah. I think Greg Davies did it really well in his standup show. He did this [00:42:00] kind of quite long monologue talking about something really, really sad and really, really emotional. and the end of the story involved him tucking his dad into bed and he just said something like, I don't know if you've ever tucked your dad into bed.

Weird. And I think because everything had been serious up until that point, him just saying that line, which isn't very funny, out of context because everyone was so tense. Yeah. And so sad. It's the funniest thing in the world and people just this relief, you know? Yeah. , and so as a writer,

it's a really low hanging . Fruit when you are writing something really depressing, really sad, really emotional. So you just cut through it with a funny little line or a, a cut to a different scene.

That's a funny scenario. And actually, as part of me in this scenario, I'm trying to make something really personal. I'm like, oh, actually I might just leave them with it. Maybe it's more powerful for me to let them have some of what I'm feeling and not let them off. Yeah.

Giving them the joke or giving them the relief actually might be letting [00:43:00] them go too easy. And actually, if I wanna make a film about something horrible that's happened to me, maybe I should really actually force you to sit with it for a bit longer ? Yeah. And how do you go about making the decision?

I think the answer is probably to test it.

So I devised six different versions of the film, , over the last few months.

I've got the producers of the film , but really, and they would say this as well, it's not up to them, you know, they can tell you which one they like.

, and there's probably more than one in that six that would work. , but ultimately, it comes down to what I want from it. And that is just so intense. Yeah. Well, it comes back to what we were saying earlier. Now I get why you were, , cringing earlier because it's exactly that, isn't it?

You are the one who's responsible and you want to do it right, because it is such a personal story. And have, you found in the writing of it that I'm sure there's been some moments where it's quite challenging and confronting, but.

Has it been cathartic, yeah,, I mean, privately in some public spaces, I found myself coherently and clearly talking about some of the most , [00:44:00] unimaginable experiences that I went through, and there is no doubt that making the film has enabled me to discuss these topics

When you were talking about it, did you find you then got support because you were able to talk about it?

Yeah, I mean the film's extremely personal , and a lot of people who read the film didn't know that, , a lot of this stuff happened to me as a kid. , so that was really helpful actually in translating all of that. I didn't have to sit every one of them down and go, this is something that happened to me.

You know, they can just read it and that's a lot easier. The problem lies in the film being a fiction film and it going places that didn't happen, you know? , which is quite funny. Oh yeah. So they're like, which bit is that true?

It's obviously incredibly difficult, you know, when you're making a, what is essentially a commercial piece of work about, , something very personal. It's very difficult when I'm sitting in meetings with film streamers but, you know, ultimately, and overall I think the entire process has been incredibly helpful. , what better way to understand yourself and the people around [00:45:00] you than write a script about it. I mean, the fact that these events were so horrifying for me, but they were also really difficult for my mum, you know, and they were very difficult, , for other family members that I've talked to about it.

, and when you're writing a script, you get to be those people, you know? And so I got to, be my mom talking about this with her son. And that is a kind of empathy that you don't get in a normal environment. So using in this case, screenwriting to, , explore something that, , happened to me

it's been pretty amazing. And, without it, I certainly wouldn't have the perspective I currently have on, on stuff that happened to me, you know? , so that's really nice. That is absolutely fascinating. I, I was talking about perspective taking with a psychologist, actually .

Talking about the importance of empathy and perspective taking. I'd never thought about it in the sense of people writing a film. , that's really interesting. I mean, I'm not a trained psychologist, you know, shock, shock, horror.

But I have to [00:46:00] say, if you, , have gone through something that's difficult, it's not a bad idea just to get your notes out, out. And, , write a conversation. , if you have something that you wanna say to someone, , that you haven't felt able to say, I don't know some psychologists might go, don't do this, you know, it's a really bad idea 'cause you're gonna catastrophize or spiral or whatever.

But if you were to write a scene, the way I write a scene, for instance, this is a great example, is like, so in the film, the main character who's like represents me has to tell his mom something happened to him as a kid. And so the way I write a scene is usually I start off with one character.

If it's two hander, we call it, if it's between two people, then I start off with one person and I just live in their skin for a bit and I just give really default answers from the other person. So I just get the message across that I wanna get across and then I go back and I assume my mother's.

Position. And then I'll write her responses to whatever he's saying. And then his words will change based on her responses and vice versa. What it does, you just become one person at one time.

You don't have to be [00:47:00] both. And I think often when we have something to say that we feel like we can't say. It's very easy to assume that this person that we know and love to be very trustful and very loving and kind of giving and compassionate, we often assume they're gonna be a lot worse than they really are.

But actually, if you take the time to think about who they are as people, how are they really gonna respond to this? Because actually I think they'd be quite understanding, ? Yeah. When you write it out, you realize, okay, well that doesn't actually seem so, so bad. Yeah.

The highest likelihood is that they would come to accept it,

I'm really interested in how you sort of like role play and like how much you go into it. I'm not imagining you actually put on , clothes and a wig and like, what, well, you might do, no, I don't, I don't. But like, what do you do to kind of get yourself into the zone of like, being your mom in this instance?

I focus on the words. A lot of writers focus on the action and they might stand up or record themselves having a conversation with themselves and stuff like that. But I really focus on the words because in these scenes you have to write one line at a time.

You can't have a global view of the scene as you're writing it, in my [00:48:00] opinion, because that's not how conversations work. Unless you are a complete narcissist and you are just, you just have a script in your head and you will say whatever you want to say no matter what and that could be that, you know, that could be a character, you know, that could be a character.

You are responding to what that person says. So if you're having an argument about who left the out of date yogurt in the fridge, if I said to my partner, you were meant to remove that out of the fridge last week. Then my partner is gonna respond, well, last week I was really stressed out with my presentation.

Whereas if I said you were supposed to remove that log out the fridge and I don't put the last week time specific stamp on it, that person might not even think about what they were doing last week. They might not think to think of an excuse for that. Instead they might think of a more general excuse like, I don't know what, whose job is it anyway to do that?

So that's why in a scene, I think it's quite useful for me to just focus on the words because in an argument especially, but also in any discussion that has any sense of drama or conflict in it, you are always picking up on specific language cues. , and there'll [00:49:00] be , other characters that are the same, more narcissistic and , they see themselves as more in control of the situation.

So actually you deliberately. Disregard elements of what they're saying. So you don't pick up on the last week thing. You don't pick up on what they're actually saying. And actually you just peddle your own narrative and you ignore that person. And then it's all about how that person who isn't the master, how do they then respond to that disregard for any, , train of thought.

Yeah. That's interesting. That power dynamic piece where , someone's overpowering someone else

It's a very thought out, long, meticulous process really.

Well, I think we have come to the end of our journey through the forest thank you so much for lighting the path.

So I'd like to congratulate you. For becoming an art after dark Illuminati. Oh God, yeah. Can't believe I'm a part of the actual Illuminati. I Amazing. I know, I know. We need a secret handshake, . Next time the a kind of crazy Uber driver talks to me about conspiracy theory. I can say, well, I'm one of 'em.

Make, so it's Okay. So you [00:50:00] have two duties to perform. Yes. , before you can go back on your way and write your script. Mm-hmm. , first one is to try and give some kind of, , exercise for people to do, to just get a little taste and easy way in to your own creative expression, which in this case is writing or filmmaking.

, and then the second one is, who would you recommend that I speak to who would come into the forest with me? So same exercise that I give to all my fellow writers who, people who want to be writers is I tell them to, , write a 62nd conversation. Normally we say a film script is a page per minute, but when it's just dialogue, it's usually a couple of pages, a couple pages of script.

, and you've got to think of a scenario between two people and, , essentially do the kind of classic rule in any screenwriting, which is to take a protagonist, shove them up a tree, throw as many apples as you can at them, and they either fall down or climb down. And that is the structure of any story ever, whether it's this [00:51:00] podcast or any film that you can possibly think of.

A protagonist goes through something and they either make it out alive or they don't. Yeah. So write a two minute story between two people. And see if you can create of two minute conversation, and if you want a starting point. The one I always give people is, girl is in her apartment.

Boy is standing on the street, and he's gotta convince her to let him back in. That's a good scenario to start off. Oh, I love that. Just, think of the simplest thing you can do and write two minutes of dialogue and , you'll see how bloody easy it is. And actually all these people doing the right of strike should get off the high horse and get back to work.

Brilliant. Oh well I'm gonna give that. And who would you recommend. I might be biased because she's literally my best friend in the entire world, Christina s which is her writer's name or Christina Pringle. , she is a producer that I've worked with for many years and she is, a writer and director as well.

I'm currently producing her first animated film right now, and it's called Writeable. And she [00:52:00] is a Taiwanese American, writer director. She's one of the sweetest and most compassionate people in in the world. I love her so much and she's an incredibly talented storyteller, so she's someone I think you should light up the forest with as soon as you possibly can.

Is this the Christina who you send the description? The, the Christina. Oh my word. So now there also could be a serial element to this podcast. Watch that episode to find out more. Yeah, so that's good. Keep people coming back. Yeah, exactly. I love that. Yeah. We're just gonna build on this format completely.

EEA Easter Eggs. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I'm very excited to get to talk to the Christina. Well, thank you so much, Harry, for your time. I wish you all the best on finishing your script and I cannot wait to see the film. As soon as it's out, I'll be there with my hot too.

I'll see you in a few years.

Louise: I really hope that you've enjoyed our conversation in the forest today. Remember to tag me on [00:53:00] socials@artafterdark.co. If you've been inspired to create or to share any thoughts on this episode I'd absolutely love to hear from you and to see what you've been up to.

You can find all images and details of the creations we discuss in the show notes on my website, louise emily.com.

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