How you can PROCESS difficult emotions though creating.
Artist and teacher, Claire James was diagnosed with Breast cancer at just 31 years old and decided to start a creative journal where each day she would to help process and share her experience.
After being given the all clear and recovering, Claire decided to turn the drawings into a book, creating "A Year With C".
She is now retraining as an Art Psychotherapist and trying to share her passion for creativity.
Packed into this episode you'll discover;
⚖️How balancing certainty and the freedom of uncertainty helps us feel alive.
🌳The power of post-traumatic growth.
🖌️How mark making helps you see who you are.
🛝Why we need to allow ourselves to play.
🧠How daily creating helps you process difficult emotions.
💖How sadness can open your heart.
🏋️Why Art Leisure Centres need to be in every town!
🎨What we can learn from Picasso.
Claire James was brought up in the countryside of the South Downs and from a young age, has had a love for nature and the outdoors.
She has also always had a passion for art and creativity. After studying Psychology at university she completed her PGCE in primary teaching and taught in London for 6 years.
Claire married her husband Harry in 2018 and they welcomed their son, Milo, in 2019.
Then, in November 2021, having just turned 31 years old, Claire was diagnosed with Breast cancer. Not sure how she was going to cope with the upcoming chemo and mastectomy, she turned to creativity as a tool to get her through this challenging chapter of her life.
Learn more about Louise's Art After Dark workshops
Creation 1: Claire's artwork
Links to things we talk about in the show:
Get creating with Claire's suggestion!
Painting shapes and patterns with watercolours or inexpensive powder paints.
Transcript
[00:00:00] what a lot of people don't realize is their suppressed creativity will be causing them upset because I, don't believe that some people are creative and some people are not. 'cause there is lots of different ways to be creative.
I always think of that quote, , from Picasso where he said, I spent 20 years trying to paint like Raphael and then the rest of my life, Trying to paint like a child again.
And she said it's called Post-traumatic growth, where if something comes outta this traumatic experience and it changes your perspective and allows you to move, in a way you wouldn't have done so before.
Louise: Hello, and I'm delighted to welcome you to another episode of my podcast, art After Dark, where we explore the transformative impact of the arts on mind, body, and soul. I'm your host, Louise Emily, an artist on a mission to shed light on the power. Of human creativity.
Today's guest is Claire James.
Claire James was brought up in the countryside of the South Downs and has always had a love for nature in the outdoors.
Clara's also always had a passion for art and creativity.
After studying psychology [00:01:00] at university, she completed her P G C E in primary teaching and taught in London for six years.
Claire married her husband Harry in 2018, and then they welcomed their son Milo in 2019.
Then things changed . November, 2021, when Claire had just turned 31, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Not sure how she was going to cope with the upcoming chemo and mastectomy. Claire decided to start a creative journal where each day she would draw or paint her experience of living with cancer, and then write a caption to go with it
In order to process and share her experience.
After being given the all Claire and recovering, claire decided to turn her drawings into a book and created a year with C cancer Creativity, and Claire.
She's now retraining as an art psychotherapist and is trying to share her passion for creativity. As you can see, darkness has fallen. It's time to welcome Claire to the [00:02:00] forest.
Welcome.
Hello. Hello. Really lovely to see you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's an absolute pleasure. So, , are you all packed? Have you got your bag and, and snack? I do, yeah. Brilliant. Can you share with us what you've got inside it? So, , I've always liked bags with sort of little pockets and compartments for each thing.
So it's got lots of little pockets for paintbrushes and sketchbooks and various little bits and the drink and, you know, the hold on the side. You know, I've always liked the bags that are a bit more kind of technical, I guess. , so inside I've got my water bottle, which is my trusting water bottle. Has a straw, a child, but it's makes me drink more water.
, and also my snack, which I've got with me is, , chips sticks, which are just my absolute favorite. it was the only thing really I could eat in the first trimester of pregnancy. , so I was eating them eight o'clock in the morning, which I was reading a, , How to grow a baby or whatever the book.
And it, , it said if you're eating chips six in the morning, you're okay. And I thought that's fine. , and it was [00:03:00] funny enough, they were also the one of the only snacks I could eat when I was going through chemo. So yeah, they are my trust snack that I can eat. Brilliant. What flavor is it salt and vinegar or plain, yeah, salt and vinegar.
Oh God. Yeah. I'm, I'm there. I haven't had a chapstick for ages actually. Oh yeah. So good. It's made me want to go for it. Yeah. They're also one of the cheapest actually in the supermarket. Yeah, they're quite sort of generic, aren't they? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A little bit fits all. Filthy crisp, but Exactly. In a good way.
Yeah. My other one was,, I used to like discos as well. Oh yeah, they're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. , anything's not millionaire to be honest. . Definitely. . Well, I think you are all ready to go into the forest, so we would love you , to illuminate the path for us.
, can you share your first creation? So, my first creation, was actually my A level piece. I did art a level and after kind of studying art at school, I. My art teacher , though he was lovely. His is, his passion was fine [00:04:00] art. So he wanted us to paint kind of up close pictures of people's faces that were incredibly beautiful and everyone would admire, which obviously is nice, but it's not necessarily what I enjoyed doing because it's more about what you're producing rather than the process and the making.
So then when I arrived at, , college, he was a completely different person and he was far more about the abstract and about exploring and if you produced a blank canvas and could explain why it was blank canvas, he would support it. So he was an incredible teacher and he really helped me to find my style, I guess, in the sense of, the way I paint now.
, so that piece. With the trees was my first piece where I really looked at it and I felt like I'd produced something and enjoyed producing something that I was proud of and that I felt good about that. It really unlocked my kind of freedom to be more abstract and more creative in that sense.
that's really interesting 'cause it distinguishes between your [00:05:00] skills in the first instance and then the second one is very much about tapping into your inner voice, isn't it? , expressing that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I always think of that quote, , from Picasso where he said, I spent my, I spent 20 years trying to paint like Raphael and then the rest of my life, Trying to paint like a child again.
Just, and I think that's all it is. I just think that painting for me, and also that I think is what my subject has always been is sort of nature and the outdoors. That's what I tend to kind of choose. The forest is my kind of most popular.
It's interesting 'cause it does raise an question about the education system and like you as mm-hmm. With your, with your background as a teacher. It might be an interesting one for us to touch on a bit, but, um, yeah. With art, I'm not sure that the education system has necessarily thought through, or I didn't see it, at least if I speak for myself, I understood skills and I was looking at maybe a little bit of history of art.
But, , no one ever said to me, use this as a way of expressing yourself. Mm-hmm. No one really said that to me. No, no. [00:06:00] And, and that, and that's what, you know, we talk about a lot actually, and I have spoken about it a lot in the past with friends and sort of colleagues about how, uh, within education we are just getting it so wrong and that our education system in my, in my opinion, massively suppresses creativity.
, because we have this weird idea that when we're teaching art for some reason we need to, I. Or like aim towards someone. Whereas in mass it's not like we're all trying to be like Stephen Haw, otherwise none of us will get there. Yeah. Like the reality is, we, we don't seem to hone in on what people's skills are and passions are.
We tend to kind of say, well, this is what Van Goff painted. Like, so let's copy that. And they all make lovely copies of sunflowers, which look lovely, but they don't encourage children to be expressive. And every single toddler in every single nursery, probably all around the world likes Mark making. Yes.
And we'll pick up something and we'll make a mark on paper not thinking about what they're making, but just thinking about, oh, this is me [00:07:00] projecting myself onto the world. That's, you know, it's a really important thing about you know, having a sense of self, but then somewhere in school it goes wrong.
And I noticed it with, when I'm teaching in school, working with the little ones, they just, they create, they print, they might make everything. Yeah. You get to kind of 7, 8, 9 year olds and suddenly it's, oh, I can't draw. I'm not good at drawing. And where does this idea come in about being good at it? It's just, and most adults, most adults you speak to will say, oh, I can't do that.
Yeah. Because it's this idea of product and what you're producing and whether it looks good. And actually one of , my favorite stories, my, , art teacher doing my P G C E told us was that he was working with a little girl who was doing a painting of her picnic and she spent ages painting this and building it up and putting all the characters in.
And it was really lovely. And she was thinking about perspective and everything. And then she went and got loads of black paint on her paintbrush and just blobbed all over the painting. And he was watching and he was like, oh, what's happened? And she said, well, it started raining. Oh. So she was painting the process of her day [00:08:00] rather than thinking about what it would look like at the end.
She was telling a story through her painting. And I think that's what children do a lot more than adults. We believe that what we're doing is trying to produce something that people will like to look at. And actually that's not what's important. Yeah. What's important is how you get there and what it feels like when you're doing it.
Oh, definitely, . And, that kind of , the, the, way that you just described how you make something, I find myself , as a painter, I find there the better paintings because you can't possibly second guess. What other people want or they're gonna find.
Mm-hmm. Interesting. , I remember one I did was an eye, with like bits of gold paint and stuff like that. And this guy came up and he just said, oh my God, it looks like my partner. It looks like her eye. And it, and obviously I had no id, how could I possibly known that this guy was gonna come?
And like, so you can't, you just need to draw what you see. Yeah. And he had this thing of, he believed that you could transport through time or something through the eyes. It was like a, the eye was a massive symbol to him, so he was really [00:09:00] interesting guy. But, , yeah, you can't second guess it, so you might as well just express yourself.
Mm-hmm. And then, You know, people will be attracted to that. Mm-hmm. And that's what I love about art is it's not supposed to appeal to everyone or no. , mass market, you know? No, exactly. There's gonna be some that appeal to that gen. Mm-hmm. Generally appeal to the human psyche when you probably go to such a deep level.
, because that whole thing around the personal becomes universal. I love what you're saying about just that freedom, , , that kids have. 'cause I see that with my young children as well. Yeah, exactly. They just, they don't think, you know, and it's so sad. 'cause actually my son said to me, say, oh, I don't want to do coloring 'cause I can't stand the line.
So obviously someone in his life isn't me, but it's someone either at nursery or something and said, oh, try and stay inside the lines. And now he doesn't want to do coloring. He does do a lot of painting, but he doesn't want color now, which I just think is so sad that he already has this idea of conformity.
And if you can't conform to what. People want to see, then you just don't do it. Yeah, it's so sad to see it happen so [00:10:00] quickly. And, what do you think that people are missing out on? If you were to say to people, if they were gonna pick up some, art materials at the weekend, for an adult, what would you say that they're missing out on if they don't do that?
I think, I mean there is research to show that the the endorphins that, you get from creating something, it doesn't necessarily have to be painting. Some people like knitting or like crocheting or, , embroidery now is become really big, isn't it? Yeah. , or pottery or whatever it is.
But producing something that is entirely your own, not for the sake of someone else, just because you felt like making it, and not even for someone else to see, but just that feeling of, it's all to do with. And we've learned a lot about this in my course in terms of, , When you develop your sense of self, , and you realize you're not attached to your mother and all this and kind of thing, the first thing you want to do is Mark mate.
'cause it's a way of projecting yourself. It's a way of confirming, I am here, I exist and I I this is who I am and this is what I'm putting down. And I find personally, if I know I haven't created for a while because I, I feel really [00:11:00] stifled and I feel really pent up. Some people get that about running, some people say, I need to go for a run.
And it's the same feeling. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is their suppressed creativity will be causing them upset because I, don't believe that some people are creative and some people are not. 'cause there is lots of different ways to be creative. It might not be sitting and painting, but there are lots of different ways of playing and creating that will bring that pleasure and that kind of sense of, yeah, confirming who you are.
That kind of affirmation of this is me and this is, I can see me in front of me now sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. , so that's an interesting phrase the suppressed self. , what do you think that people are suppressing and how do you think that can make you unwell?
Well, I think, I think a lot of what comes with sort of, I mean, creating and playing are very similar in my opinion. And I think what comes with playing, which is obviously children do a lot, but adults don't do as much , is the fear of failure. 'cause if you play, there's a chance [00:12:00] you might not either win or you might not get it right.
And I think as adults especially in our society, we have this belief that we have to present ourselves and we have to come across and be successful. So if you are playing, there's a chance you might not be successful and therefore that's damaging. Whereas if we allow ourselves to play and allow ourselves to be silly and to create and not worry about the idea of success and the product, at the end, it will just let out all these fears of kind of holding tight.
This idea of I must not fail. I must not let myself let my guard down. I must kind of remain. You know? So I think we just have to observe toddlers. Really? Yeah. Because toddlers just know how to do it. Yeah. They do everything right And it's so sad that we squash it out of them, but you know, they create and they play and they cry and they shout and then they just move on and, and I think that's just, there's something in that.
They're very much in the moment and yeah. So it's, it's freeing, isn't it? I think like that's absolutely, yeah. What [00:13:00] I take from what you said is there's that freedom of expression and letting it out. Absolutely. And like a purging and Yeah. I definitely relate to the running analogy as well that you mentioned earlier.
It's, very back to basics, isn't it? Like we are animals, we need to run. Mm-hmm. We need to, , eat, sleep, drink enough water, and we need to express ourselves through mark making. But it's what we did, I guess, before language. , , exactly. We were storytellers through Mark making for like, long before we started talking.
So we've lost somewhere along the way. We've lost this innate desire to do it, to do it well. We haven't lost the desire. The desire is there. We're just. Suppress connecting with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. . . So interesting.
, I would love us to move on now to creation number two. Yeah. So, , as you mentioned, , in my introduction, I was diagnosed with cancer, , a couple of years ago now, and my good friend, , Rory, who I believe is one of your guests, had already done a similar project of doing something every day.
So I kind of was chatting with my mom and I was thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna be, 'cause I knew I was gonna be off [00:14:00] work and ' cause of, you know, the treatment meant I couldn't be around children. So, Lots of them anyway. So I kind of decided, we talked about it and , maybe I'll do, I'll get a sketchbook and I'll do a painting or Rory every day.
And then, you know, I was talking a bit more about it and I was like, oh, and I could write something to go with it. And then I thought, well, maybe I could put it, put it out there. And I had a chat with Rory about it and he said, look, it's in your control. If you start doing it, you hate it. You just stop it and take it down.
And I thought, okay. But actually it became this amazing way, not only for me to process, but actually for me to update friends and family. So they didn't, they often said to me, I knew I didn't need to message you to be like, how are you feeling today? 'cause I knew I would see it come up on my Instagram.
They all followed it and they could see it happening , so it was a really nice way to kind of share my experience. And I think some people might look at it and go, wow, that's kind of. It's a lot, you know, putting yourself out there. And the fact that I've now published it, I sometimes think to myself, oh my God, I've actually just published my diary that like, [00:15:00] oh, it's horrible.
So I have to fight with that sometimes. And I did have to fight with it a lot actually during the whole process of feeling sort of narcissistic. And, you know, me, me, me and woe is me. And it was hard at times, but the response I had from friends and family, but also from other people going through treatment or survivors or friends or family or supporters of people going through treatment kept me going I had complete strangers messaging me to say, thank you so much for sharing this.
, you've inspired me to start my own diary, my own creative journal, or you have shared your story and therefore helped me to understand what my friend is going through. So that's what made me continue. , and then towards the end of the year people started saying, where are you gonna put it in a book then?
And I had thought about it myself, and I really feel that it helped me to not get closure. 'cause I don't feel, that's the right thing for thinking about going through cancer treatment, but more just process and kind of share the experience. So I didn't, it's not all in my head[00:16:00] and it's not all trapped up there.
I've put pretty much everything I felt going through it in that, you know, journal. So I don't feel like there's anything going on up there that isn't not there. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. It really helped. It really did. I imagine it did. It's such a, brilliant body of work, essentially.
I know that's not necessarily the way that you thought of it at the time, but mm-hmm. Obviously me coming in, , at the end of it, you've got your whole year which is incredible. , yeah, we hear a lot about the benefits of journaling mm-hmm.
And just for people who haven't seen it, each day. There's a sketch. There's also the commentary that goes alongside it. Could you talk me through a typical day was there one particular time of day that you did it?
Did you think about , the image first, then the words, , how did that work? , well, I tended to end up doing it in the evening, so I'd put Milo down and then I'd go and sit and I'd , usually do it on the sofa sometimes, I would manage to sort of sit at the table and do it a bit earlier in the day, but often it was on the sofa the end of the day, which made sense in terms of, that was when, , it'd [00:17:00] reflect on the day.
During the day I would notice things or I would have something that stuck out in my head that I think, yeah, I'm gonna draw that later. I'm gonna paint that later. And then the words would sort of start forming.
The funny thing is when I stopped, , obviously on the 31st of, , December, the next, about the next two, three weeks, every single day I realized I had this narrative in my head of, oh, today I, you know, or I would notice things and think I could do that. And it took quite a while to get out of that mindset of noticing things and thinking, oh, I could paint that, or I could draw that, or I could mention that, or I could talk about that.
So yeah, it really did become part of my whole mindset of kind of, I'd noticed something and it would make me think about something. Throughout the book, there's a lot of metaphors and I remember one in particular, we were walking, I was out walking with Milo and all the spiderwebs, , over the Gores bushes had Jew all over them.
So they were this, this, it was incredible to see 'cause they were just kind of wow. Everywhere. We [00:18:00] stopped and looked at them for a while and we were looking at the spiders. And then I drew a spiderweb and then talked about this idea of feeling suspended. 'cause it was kind of after my treatment had finished and I thought, suspended midair, not really sure.
So I kind of found myself finding all these in, you know, little kind of metaphors, , around me. And I kind of wanted it to be something I could look back on. I wanted to be able to look back and see there were good points. for example, I've got a picture of Harry in there and I've got a drawing of Milo in there.
And , my best friend's wedding happened that year, so I've got, things about that in there. And so there are like amazing highlights. but then there were days when nothing really happened and I had to kind of really rack my brains of , well, I didn't really do much today. And then I was start to feel guilty of, oh, I just being a bit ridiculous making, you know, And actually it was Rory, he said to me, but Clare, what is so important is it's those InBetween days that are so important and we can't live life thinking that it's always this big, either really horrible things or amazing things.
There are just in-between days [00:19:00] and they're just meh days. , but he made me feel a lot better about it. I was thinking a similar thing in that it does capture that ebb and flow because, when you are dealing with something as difficult to deal with as, , as that, then I.
It's almost, . Like looking back in history, you kind of imagine all of the dramatic moments. But actually having lived through a pandemic, you realize there's a whole lot of nothingness in between.
So yeah, definitely. And that nothingness is actually what makes life great in terms of, if we didn't have that, if we were endlessly swinging between, good and bad days or whatever, then you just would be, yeah. Impossible. But at the time I was so aware that people were looking at it and I was, putting that on show to the world, , these mundane days where I wasn't surviving cancer or Yeah.
You know, suffering from chemo. I kind of felt like, oh, why do people care what I'm doing today? But actually when it's all together in the book it, I felt it was actually. Was okay. And that, [00:20:00] you know, we need that, as you say, the ebb and flow. We can't have, this kind of life isn't kind of a folk opera, you know, it has these moments of still and quiet.
Yeah. In between the kind of, so yeah, it kind of, putting it all together really did help me to see that. Yeah.
, there was one quote if I'm okay to just read a snippet from it. , which I found . A massive insight into the challenges. , it's, a drawing, a sketch of,
One of these toxic waste containers. , and it says, I am drained. I'm a drain. I feel like I do nothing but suck the life from those around me.
Just like the cancer is trying to suck the life from me. I do remember that. I do remember that really clearly. So I mean that's, that's a really hard hitting post. and there are a few like that where it's not the InBetween, it's not the positive ones. You were so honest in it, and that must have been really challenging.
But, you know, I really admire your courage in being [00:21:00] able to express it. , what made you want to go to that level of honesty and what was the feedback you got from , friends, family or, or people who were going through cancer? There were lots of moments like that and there was some times when I didn't actually, and I can find the pictures where I've just written something random and knowing that actually that day I was feeling a lot of other things, but just not wanting to always share exactly what was going on.
But that day, Yeah, I just remember it being hard and I, funny enough, the beginning of the post said, look, I'm not doing this in order to gain sympathy. Because again, I felt this kind of, I don't wanna moan and feel like people then feel the need to then message me saying, I'm so sorry you feel that way.
'cause I just didn't, that's not why I was saying it. Yeah, I'm saying it 'cause I wanted to shed light on how it fell. And funny enough, I think around that time I'd actually listened to a podcast, which I think was part of you, me and the big C , about the guilt. And , a lot of people say when they're going through treatment, they'd almost rather have no one to love them because it's, even though it's a huge thing and it supports you, the [00:22:00] guilt and the kind of knowing that you are causing someone else pain, not on purpose, but what's happening to you is hurting someone else , is so hard to kind of cope with.
And it's just also you kind of. not often, but there were times when I felt like my presence in the room and my presence within people's minds, you know, whatever was this drain, this kind of like dark energy. And it's hard to put that into words, but funnily enough, when I posted that picture that day and the caption to go with it, I think I had three or four messages from not only lot, I had lots of messages on my phone from friends and family.
Yeah. You know, telling me they love me and everything, saying, I know you don't wanna hear this. I know this is why you didn't do it. Saying anyway. , but then I also had people on Instagram saying that image of the toxic waste completely summed up how they felt. Just that kind of feeling of just feeling like this absolute.
You know, and also because obviously you've got a lot of chemicals and drugs in you, you feel this [00:23:00] sense of, I'm not natural, I'm not kind of right now, you know, I've got all these horrible things in me. So, yeah. Yeah. A lot of people reached out to say that that had resonated with them. That feeling of just feeling like a drain and feeling like this kind of black cloud basically that kind of Hobbs.
And so , having that feedback then made me feel that I wasn't alone. And that encouraged me to carry on with sharing those feelings. And I didn't wanna do it too often. 'cause obviously I didn't want people to be signing every day and seeing these horrible posts. But, and the reality was I didn't feel that every day.
And there were days I felt that way and I felt really low. And there were days when I felt better and grateful and I was okay. So yeah. Yeah. I think that post in particular was, , I. One that actually spurred me on because of the response I got from it in terms of other people. So, no, I bet.
Yeah, it's nice to kind of feel seen and heard, especially when you're going through something like that. And yeah. Did you find it sometimes easier when you were talking to people , that didn't know you? Oh yeah, absolutely. I [00:24:00] mean, I have one friend who I will call her a friend and she probably would do the same who lives in New Zealand.
We've never met face-to-face. , , we connected early on, 'cause I found her on Instagram. She was also sharing her experience though she went through treatment, , back in 2020. Her baby was 10 weeks old at the time. , so she had it really tough in the beginning of motherhood going through treatment.
, but we, you know, speak a lot and we kind of message back and forth. she's also had this amazing, and we were actually talking, I was talking to her about the fact that I'm now. Doing something completely different and things that come out of, you know, my experience with cancer and she said it's called Post-traumatic growth, where if something comes outta this traumatic experience and it changes your mindset and changes your perspective and allows you to move, in a way you wouldn't have done so before.
So she now actually works for a breast cancer charity in New Zealand and , and that she was doing something completely different before. So yeah, it's connecting with people and chatting with her, knowing that she knew exactly how I was feeling was really good.
And also knowing I wasn't burdening her [00:25:00] by yeah, talking to her about the things I was struggling with because I knew that she wasn't gonna carry it in the same way my friends and family would, it's not something you want to hear that someone you love is suffering, whereas if it's someone who's far away but has experienced it too, it's a difference or relationship.
So, and I had lots of people like that I connected with through Instagram, so, yeah. No, that's brilliant. Yeah, and I, I also, one of my other examples, this is one of my favorite ones, it says high brows, , yeah.
So can you talk us through that? It's such a practical example. Yeah, no, I mean, The funny thing is when they first said chemo, I think the first thing my brain t conjured up was an image of me with no hair. , which I kind of was okay with, and I was okay with losing my hair.
, but I shaved it off quite quickly and actually I was quite lucky and a lot of people said to me, not, not sound like I'm bragging, but a lot of people said, oh, actually you suit having .
The eyebrows was really hard. I really struggled with that bit because, Losing hair, you can kind of wear a hat or actually it doesn't really change your face, your hair, [00:26:00] even though it does at the end of the day. 'cause we wear our hair up sometimes. You know, your face shape stays the same.
Yeah. But losing your eyebrows completely changed your face. Yeah. , and obviously my eyelashes kind of went too, and every time I looked to the mirror I just felt really, really upset because I just looked ill, I looked sick and I didn't like it. And they started to go and I started just using like pencil and powders, but nothing was really working.
And then I was on my Instagram and this advert came up or stick on eyebrows. So I ordered some and stuck them on and I was like, oh my God, I look like me again. And it was just this feeling of kind of being able to just see my reflection in the mirror and not be like shocked by kind of what was looking back. So it was absolutely, yeah, game changing in terms of my confidence of going out, you know, because I had lots of head scarfs and hats and that's, you know, I can cope with that, but just, that's so much part of your face.
It really shaped, they really shape your face. So yeah, finding those stick ons were amazing. So when I [00:27:00] shared them, a lot of people were like, oh my God, I'm gonna, because I think a lot of people were in the same situation of just feeling really fed up yeah.
The only problem was, is they staff obviously started to peel off, so Harry would say to me occasionally, I think you need to redo it, and, then I'm glad you mentioned Harry. , how did your, , drawings and, and paintings or sketches, how did they help you to communicate with,, your husband because you're living in the same house?
Did he, read them? Did he look at them? Yeah, he did. , and sometimes he would sort of turn to me after reading the post and be like, why didn't you tell me? Or you know, kind of, you know, you can talk to me about this. And I'm like, I know I can, but sometimes it's easy to put it in here first. 'cause it was such a kind of way through.
Sometimes I'd ask him, I'd say, what do you think about me saying this? Or, you know, just for his opinion, not, not his permission, but his opinion kind of in terms of do you think it too much? And he was so supportive of it, obviously. And he's so much a part of the journey. He's, him [00:28:00] and Milo are both mentioned a lot and my mom obviously.
but yeah, he was always great at sort of, , giving me the time and space to do it as well. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes joined me, but not very often. And how long would it take you to do one of them? I mean, some of them not long at all. Like there are some where it's, I. Didn't spend long on them at all.
But there are some, ,I think there's an elephant sketch, which took me a very long time. There's a sketch of my own faith, which took me quite a while. You know, it depends. Some days I just was not in the mood for it at all and I really resented actually having to sit down and do it. But there was something in that, that resentment of doing it that made it even more powerful.
Yeah. Because it was, this gave me this sense of purpose of kind of, I need to do that sort of thing. , and it's funny I go through, , phases of not looking at it that often, then I kind of come across it again and just glance at it or I see it in people's houses and it's quite like, you know, but, , it does, yeah, it does hold so much in terms of [00:29:00] the year really.
Yeah. And kind of the, whole experience. Do you miss it? I did initially. Yeah, I did actually. it was really weird the first couple of weeks. But the time I was still doing the book, so that was still sort of happening. That was ticking over. So I was updating them Instagram account with when the book was coming.
Yeah. , yeah, I did miss it, but it equally, it freed up much time, but I wasn't having to think whenever I went away don't forget all the stuff to do that. And, , it freed up time to do other creative projects yeah, exactly. I'd started my course by that point,
I do sometimes miss the fact that I was forced to do something creative every day. 'cause now I don't necessarily have the time to do something creative every day. So I miss that in sense why I was. Not forced to, but you know, it's locked in. Yeah. Yeah. You'd committed to it and you were gonna see it through.
exactly. Yeah, definitely. And you said something in there that says you talk about living with heart. What do you mean by living with heart? I think, I think it has changed, and I don't mean to sound sort of cringey, [00:30:00] but it has changed the whole project and year of going through treatment really changed my perspective on things and living, I guess in a way that is a lot more well being grateful and a lot more loving and really grabbing life rather than kind of just letting life happen.
, which actually leads me on quite nicely to, , my tattoo that I designed. Yeah. , because I had always wanted to get a tattoo and never really had the guts to do it. , or never really had an idea of what I really, really wanted. So, so this is, this is your creation three, isn't it?
Yes. Yes. Brilliant segue. Yes. It's, it's my, it is my third creation I wanted to share. well I have two actually. I got, , two at the same time. Everyone found it funny that I go to, but they're very small, . But I got, , if it's possible to show, I essentially got .
, on my wrist, , nine two six, because Milo was born at nine twenty six on the 26th of the ninth. So it works because it's digital numbers, it works both ways. So I've got that one for Milo, but then at the same time I got, , this one on my arm. Yep. [00:31:00] Which is a line and then a dot. Because on the day that I found out that my results from the lab were negative, they didn't find any sign of the cancer within the breast issue that was removed.
My image that I did in the book was just a line. And every day I always did a dot after the caption. So I'd write the caption than do a dot. So for me, the line, the.is signifying ne negative, and then that's it, kind of like end of that It's also morse code for n so no more negative.
and also what I quite liked about it is when I do this, it becomes an exclamation mark, which is the whole idea of kind of grabbing life and living life to the full and, you know, living kind of in a way that is, as I said, not waiting for life to happen, but doing what I want and really being passionate about what I want and Oh, I love that.
It kind of, yeah, it signifies a lot for me though. It's very small and simple. It has a lot of meaning to it. Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. Did you go alone? I didn't tell anyone. Yeah. I didn't tell [00:32:00] anyone I was going.
, and then I surprised, everyone with a picture, . Oh, brilliant. I don't think my, my mom was particularly happy, but more so, I think she's alright.
How do you feel now when you look at it? , what does it give you, , I have a few sort of scars on my body from treatment. , I have one, funny enough, not far from where the, , tattoo is, that's from the PICC line I had put in.
Yeah. Which I did not like at all. So it's something I can look at, which is a scar that I've chosen. It's something that I've chosen a mark that I have made, and I guess it's all linked in with the mark making. And this idea of projecting is that I have mark made on my own body. To signify something that I went through.
Yeah. And though it sounds strange, was very important and I'm actually really grateful for that whole experience because it's, , taught me so much in terms of who I am and who I want to be, rather than what I was before suppressing a lot of that. , so yeah, it's always a little reminder when I look at it.
And it's also, actually, I didn't say that because of my mastectomy. I joke that it's, , the line and the dot [00:33:00] that's brilliant because of, , yeah, the fact that I've had a single mastectomy. So yeah, I think it's, IM empowering in that sense and it's giving me that sense of I've chosen it rather than it was inflicted upon me.
. Brilliant. I think that's, that's so interesting to know. And it takes it all the way through, doesn't it, to kind of where you are now. There's a big change that you, you've, you've been through an extraordinary experience and yet you wouldn't, say that you wouldn't have wanted it because it's obviously changed where you are now.
So what are you doing now? So, I'm currently training, at Roehampton University to be a art psychotherapist. , which is something I've looked into, and thought about a lot because I also did psychology at university and I've always loved art. And actually when you combine those, you kind of come out with this heart psych therapist.
So, I looked into it, but obviously it's expensive and obviously it takes a lot of time and we, had Myla back in 2019 and were planning to have another, funny enough, we had just talked about starting [00:34:00] trying, and then my diagnosis came in, so that had to stop. a month before, , I was diagnosed, I actually had taken out life insurance because I lost my aunt to cancer.
And what came with that was critical illness cover, which, you know, my cancer counted.
So I made a claim. It took a long time because they really had to kind of dive into how on earth I'd managed to take out life insurance a month before I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Yeah. But they did believe me that it was just horrible bad luck. And so I ended up getting quite a good payout through that insurance.
Funny enough, I was phoned, , by the assessor to tell me that they were going to pay out while I was in hospital.
And obviously I just broke down on the phone with this poor woman. But only a few days before I'd been offered a place on this art psychotherapy course. So the whole thing was very kind of, as Carl Young would say, but in my head it all meant a lot. So that enabled me to do the course 'cause I could pay for it.
'cause there's no way I'll be able to pay for otherwise. But [00:35:00] also, not only that, but because I have to have this break where we can't have another child for a couple of years because of the treatment I have to be on for the next few years that's trying to prevent a recurrence. It kind of all lined up that I have these three years where I can train part-time, still work a bit to bring in a bit of income, but essentially it's allowing me to do my dream career.
So, which is why when people say, oh God, you know, I'm like, well, actually, if that hadn't happened, I wouldn't be doing this. Yeah. So it's a very strange, Setup, I guess, in that sense. Oh, that's fantastic. I've got goosebumps when you're describing that story because the fact that you, you got the place and the money at the same time.
It's a lovely part of your story. I'm really pleased that you've managed to start the course. What, do you intend to do with the qualification once you've, finished? Not to go into politics, but the government we have doesn't necessarily put a lot of money into mental health, but people are realizing how important it is and they're trying to put it, you know, in themselves.
So when I'm qualified, the hope is that, I can, work, you have to work for three years before you're allowed to do your own [00:36:00] private practice. So I'll be working hopefully either in a school or a hospital or hospice or charity, the kind of long term. Slightly more fantasy in terms of a goal.
It's not really a goal, it's a fantasy, is this idea that I would absolutely love to set up a place where people can come and be creative. Essentially a bit like, a gym or a leisure center, but for creativity. So you'd have a room where you could do pottery 'cause it's another bit that I actually love doing.
, or there's a painting room or there is a music room, or there is a creative writing room or you know, there's loads of different areas, but then also you'd have therapy rooms where you can have music therapy or art therapy, drama therapy. So just really, , somewhere where people can go and unleash that creativity that they have suppressed and actually find, themselves in that sense.
But obviously that's a goal that is, Oh yeah, very much. I love, love that. I [00:37:00] love, I love that idea of the Art Leisure center or the, , , the kind of creative leisure center, because why not? Like , , why do we think that it's, so important to sleep and to eat well, and to exercise. And yet, back to our conversation right at the start of our chat, it's, it's so important and fundamental to people, and yet we are not acknowledging it.
And especially as you say with that mental health crisis, God, I think I would like to live in a world where there's, oh, let's just centers on, you know, in every kind of town planner's, , handbook for the best town. yeah, well, exactly. And I think, you know, people spend a lot of money on gym memberships, , and I obviously, I'm not in any way implying that we should give up those because I think being fit and healthy is also really important, but I just think that creativity should be alongside that.
And I just think that . If we make it a habit and make it part of our lives, then I think the impact that we'll have, because the reality is, you know, with, with everything the way it's going with technology and AI and all this the one thing that stands the spot is our creativity and our ability to play.
[00:38:00] Yeah. You know, I know that they can program them to create something and you can create things using ai, but at the end of the day, really what we have as humans is unique. Absolutely. And rather than, conditioning that out of us as children, we should be encouraging it. Yeah, absolutely. And, you have to listen, don't you?
You have to listen to yourself, in order to create something and I think we're all watching television or looking at phones and. Doing something to dampen that voice down or quiet it down. And I think , that's that suppression isn't it.
Whereas if you are faced with a blank canvas or page , or, clay, that gives such an opportunity for you to actually just go, I'm doing something with my hands. I've got something to show for it. Let's just tap into, to what's inside. Absolutely. And actually , we've had the, privilege of being able to listen to some service users accounts of their experience with art, therapy.
And it's incredible to hear, you know, people who said exactly what we said at the beginning about, I can't draw, I'm not good at art.[00:39:00] And then have, Got into these, you know, started just doing one-to-one art therapy. Ended up signing up to different art therapy groups and then even when the therapy was finished carrying on with art, just going to art classes because they found this, my god, this outlet that is so powerful.
And I think just it's, it's a funny one 'cause it's almost, you know, knowing the impact that art can have and creating can have. You just want to tell everyone, you just want to say just, why don't you just have a go with some paint? So why don't you just get a piece of clay and start playing with it.
And funny enough, cause we would obviously on uni days, , we'd do some art making. We'd talk about something, we'd learn about something, then we'd go and do response art and then we'd bring it back and we'd all sit in a big circle and put it in the middle.
And at the beginning I hated it 'cause I hated this idea of what am I making? So I need to make it look good. But then by the last, , day, this, year, I just put something down. I didn't particularly like it, but , what I enjoyed was making it and thinking about things while I was [00:40:00] making it.
And I didn't feel this shame putting it down in front of people that took me a year. And I'm an artist. Yeah. And you know, I create a lot. So it is something that takes a lot of undoing, this conditioning of believing that what you put down in front of people, people need to like. Exactly. At the end of the day, as you said, you know, with the eye, some people might really like it and some might like just glance past it, you know?
Yeah. That's not what's important. It's the projection of yourself that you are freeing, as you say, from the kind of shadow and the. You know? Yeah. From the darkness. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I don't know how I would go through life now that I've found or rediscovered, , painting as an outlet because having some kind of vessel, having some kind of, way to articulate that is so important to me.
And that's what I saw in your expression throughout your A year with C but also, it's something that clearly you still do yourself to the benefit of your own, , wellbeing. And that's why we're here with this podcast really is 'cause I feel so passionately like you do, to just say, [00:41:00] honestly, guys, just give it a go.
You'll feel better. Yeah. No, exactly. And that, and that is something that, I think it's just trying to share this, it's kinda like you've got this secret that you feel the need to share. 'cause you know something, you just want everyone to feel what you feel. , but it is hard sometimes trying to.
You know, I've, I was set up to do my first art class when I was diagnosed, so that had to be canceled. , but you know, I have kind of had all these ideas and I would really like to set up doing workshops, but equally I want to make sure I go back to the right way. Because what I don't want is people to come and think that they are going to learn to do what I do.
I don't wanna show them my paintings and my pictures and go, this is what you'll need to produce. I want them to come and unleash and just unlock and just be free. Yeah. And therefore, how I go about that, I want to make sure I go about it in exactly the right way. I think that's so important. 'cause it's weird 'cause when I do, , exhibitions people come and talk to me and they say, oh, do you do classes?
And I've never felt, I always kind of go, I don't know [00:42:00] how I would do a class. Like that was my initial thing. I was like, I don't know why people would want to learn to paint like me, because I'm kind of like, that's not the point. And I, it really, that's the main thing is, you know, I, I'm happy for them to see, me paint.
It's not the issue. I've had people in my studio paint alongside me, but I'm like, find your own reference or your own thought and, just do it yourself. You know, do what you want to do. , because exactly , as you say, the point to me of painting isn't to, to copy what I'm doing. It is to express something inside.
Exactly. And I think by just, it's a bit of a oxymoron in itself teaching art. Yeah. Because it shouldn't need to be taught. Yeah. It should. Something that comes from within. The only thing that I, I've kind of landed upon is this idea of just, of just facilitating. Yes. And that's what, you know, that's what I kind of would paint myself out to be is upon.
But is someone that facilitates and create, just allows a space. Yeah. And therefore, and just provides materials and provides a space and just goes, [00:43:00] okay, well today we're gonna finger paint. Yes. Or today we're gonna print make with all these cars and pricks and stuff, you know, and that sort of thing will hopefully would just unlock and kind of allow people to kind of slowly come out of this.
Yeah. What this they, their frame of reference for art. Yeah. Because what you're doing there actually is, in the similar way to your a year with see, documenting is , you were very clear. It's one a day. , and they all seem to be a certain size and you did it at a certain time of day.
There there's some real constraints there. And it's come up a couple of times in conversations, which is if you are creating the environment, even if you said to someone you can create anything, they'd probably be a bit like, ooh, feel a bit wobbly. Whereas actually you're going, right. Today it's finger painting.
It's like, okay, fine. Right now it's just using my fingers. And, and then they can focus and just express within those um, limits. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's something that we've talked about a lot in our course. This idea that, As humans, we are constantly teetering on this need for [00:44:00] certainty and need for understanding, but equally that freedom the freedom of uncertainty.
So we are constantly kind of, and some people are much more in the uncertain and some people are happy to live there. Some people need the certain, yes. But in reality, what we need is a little bit of it, a little kind of that constant, as you say, kind of providing some structure allows people to feel safe.
It's like boundaries. We talk a lot about that in therapy, about this idea of boundaries. Same with, , children, we don't want to completely confine them, but equally if we don't provide some boundaries for them, they don't feel safe. Yeah. And that's when you see children who are just climbing the walls because they don't feel that they know where their boundaries are and their safety is.
And that we as adults want boundaries. We want safety. We. Certain things are going to run how we expect them to. We don't want every day to be unexpected. We don't wanna just turn up to work one day and everyone's suddenly sitting on the ceiling. 'cause that will freak us out. So we, yeah, we have to have some things that go as expected, but equally, having [00:45:00] some things that are unexpected and uncertain is also really important to keep us kind of centered.
Yeah. We're too certain if we're too sure of ourselves. Then we're stuck. We can't move. we are literally standing in this box. So it's kind of trying to find that balance between freedom and certainty that we horrendously wobbling between, I think. I find it fascinating. I've never thought of it or heard it explained in that way. One of the ways I think of it as well is, that need to feel alive. So you've kind of got the day-to-day things,
but I do think that you kind of need that injection of something awe inspiring, something stimulating. And I think as humans, it's why we go traveling or it's why we, want to experience different music or different art. Just, just different experiences in general. I think as humans, we want those differences and they help me and help people feel alive.
yeah, absolutely. And, and I think it works on the other way as well is actually, and I was trying to explain this to my husband last night, but you [00:46:00] know, we can't have joy without suffering. Yes. And you know, we can't have one without the other. And so we also, on top of seeking these incredible experiences, actually.
We do seek out pain and we do seek out to witness pain because we watch films which have devastating things happen. And we, we as humans want to see that. 'cause we want to, as you say, feel alive. And the way to feel alive is to feel that that life is precious and fragile. So there's this balance again, of finding these incredible experiences, but also having this understanding that, you know, terrible things can happen as well.
So. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I found myself, I dunno if you've read Susan Kane's book, bittersweet? no I haven't, but I'll have to have a look. Yeah, , I've, I've read it twice now. I really, enjoy it. It's basically talks about that whole thing of, , she's always been a, lady who likes sad songs and she loves Linda Cohen
and , some of her friends would kind of take them it to just go like, why are you listening to these [00:47:00] sad songs and everything? She's like, no, but it makes me feel like it connects with me, it calls me inside and it's exactly that type of thing that you described that teacher on the edge that if I feel sadness and sorrow, it opens my heart and it makes me appreciate what's happening in the moment.
yeah, absolutely. That really resonates with me actually. 'cause I, a lot of people have said similar things to me. actually Harry, you know, he says, oh, why do you like listening to Adele for example? I've always loved listening to Adele. 'cause she, she really, I. Connects with me and I really feel like she gets it.
Yeah. And then funnily enough, Adele's new album came out around the time I was diagnosed and Harry used to listen to it. And I don't think he'll mind me saying this, but you listen, used to listen to the way to work and just sob and sob and sob and sob. And even now, you know, when some of the songs, come on, it really gets him and he finally understands that you don't have to listen to happy music all the time.
Yes. And actually listening to sad music and listening to music that evokes those emotions in you, it's [00:48:00] also really important because you're acknowledging them and you're allowing them, as you say, allowing them space. And you're allowing that, oh my God, this is so devastatingly sad. And then you can come back to, okay, but this is also good.
You know, it's that balance. It's that kind of seesaw of emotions that we desperately need in our life. And that, and this quote that I love, which is happiness is not the absence of problems. Yeah. And that is true. We can't have this idea that we can just be happy and your life is carefree.
It's just no, impossible. Yeah. Well's like last year was one of the best years of my life, despite what happens. So, you know, , yeah. It's incredible that you are able to say that. And I would imagine that that artistic expression is a big reason for you to have processed it.
Imagine if you'd had all of that still pent up. You, you might have still been dealing with it now. , oh, a hundred percent. I, a hundred percent would say that the reason that I think that I've managed to process, I mean, obviously I was incredibly lucky that I had a good prognosis from the [00:49:00] beginning and that I had good results.
I mean, not denying that science and medication did not save my life, but the creativity and being able to process it in the way that I did. Helped me so much mentally. Yeah. And that I really wouldn't be where I am now without it. I mean, on top of that, obviously I have had therapy because we have to have therapy for the course anyway.
But actually I didn't really spend that much time talking about cancer. And I remember her saying towards the end of my therapy sessions, you know, do you want to talk about it? And I'm like, well the thing is with my cancer, she went, my cancer, do you feel it? And I said, yeah, my cancer in the sense that it was something that, it was my experience and I feel like, you know, it's really changed me.
I'm not in any way trying to put a silver lining on it 'cause it's obviously crap, it's cancer. But I was incredibly lucky and what has come from it? I just would never have got, never, I would never even come close so yeah. It's a funny one. Yeah, it [00:50:00] really is. There's that, those two sides, isn't it? , absolutely.
Well, we're at the end of our journey. Thank you so much for coming today and sharing all of your experiences. It's been absolutely fascinating. I've absolutely enjoyed every minute of it.
, so as a closing tradition, I'd like to congratulate you. You have made it through the forest and you are now an official earth after dark illuminati. Thank you. , okay. , there are two duties that go with this. Mm-hmm. , the first one, , is to help people to find a way that they could experience even just a little bit of the, , the benefits that you have from the arts.
So is there something they could do to find a way in? And the second one, , is if you could recommend someone who would come into the forest and share their stories with me. So, , in terms of accessing, , I think, , a good place to start is either watercolor paint, or actually you can just get a lot of the drawings I did in my book were paintings rather were, , just powder paints that I actually got from Tiger.
So they're not expensive, you [00:51:00] don't have to spend a lot of money. , they mix with water really well. And just to start just thinking about patterns and color, and there's an amazing , children's book called The Dot, , which is absolutely brilliant about a young girl who doesn't want to do arc. She can't draw.
So the teacher says, well just make a mark. So she ends up just getting the pen and diving it into the paper and just producing a dot. And then properly goes up to the teacher and shows her, and she says, hands it back to her and says, okay, now sign it. So she's like, so she signs it. So then the next day she comes in and she's like, I'll do a bigger dot then.
And this is what art can do for you if you just start. Something very small and simple. It doesn't have to be something that you want to frame. It can be something very, very easy and fun and water and paint just creates images in a way that is quite nice. , so that's what I'd recommend in terms of getting going.
, terms as a guest, , my good friend hit on my course, , is a [00:52:00] fellow artist and , trained to be an art psychotherapist as well, and I think he would have a lot to share about his experiences and how art has really, really helped him. That's the one I think I would put forward. Oh, that's fantastic.
Yeah, that'll be great. Yeah. , I love the idea of that, that book. So anybody who's listening, all of the things that we've mentioned today, will be in the show notes. , and Claire, , where can people find your a year with c?
So, , I'm on Instagram a year with C , and , the book is on Amazon, so if you just go onto Amazon and type in a year with C, there is Kindle, paperback, and hardback. Fantastic. , , thank you so much again and I really wish you all the best with the rest of your course and have a lovely rest of your evening.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Louise: I really hope that you've enjoyed our conversation in the forest today. Remember to tag me on socials@artafterdark.co. If you've been inspired to create or to share any thoughts on this episode I'd absolutely love to hear from [00:53:00] you and to see what you've been up to.
You can find all images and details of the creations we discuss in the show notes on my website, louise emily.com.